Welcome back to the Oathbringer Reread! This week we’ll be hunting rats on the Herdazian border, then storming around the edges of Kholinar, as we cover the last two interludes in the third section before diving back into the main story next week.
Reminder: We’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entire novel in each reread. If you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Sheler; Venli
WHERE: Herdazian border; near Kholinar
WHEN: 1174.2.2.5 (same day as Chapter 74, when Shallan was invited to the Revel); 1174.2.6.5
Sheler, a commander formerly in Amaram’s army, is captured by a force of Herdazians and given a choice of how he should die.
Venli has arrived outside of Kholinar, but isn’t allowed in. She’s kept outside, giving her “sermons” to dozens of groups of singers a day. She spends some time chatting with Timbre before Odium arrives with the Everstorm to tell her that she’s not doing a good enough job.
Truth, Love, and Defiance
Titles
Sheler
AA: Sheler, a (former?) commander in the Sadeas princedom army, is the POV character.
Her Reward
Venli had schemed to return their gods.
This was her reward.
AA: Turns out to not be quite what she’d hoped…
Heralds
Interlude 10
Nalan (Judge, Skybreakers, Just/Confident) and Talenel (Soldier, Stonewards, Dependable/Resourceful)
AA: This doesn’t seem too challenging: You have military justice (if of a somewhat rough-and-ready form) being served on a real scum of a military commander. I hesitate to dignify Sheler with the title of “soldier,” although the Herdazian general and all his men certainly qualify. Sheler is a heel.
AP: I think the Herdazian general shows particular resourcefulness here!
AA: He does. For a guy with a very small role, I really like him!
Interlude 11
Kalak (Maker, Willshapers, Resolute/Builder)
AA: AAAAAAHHHHHH!!! It just registered… Timbre pulses to Resolve a lot. Does this sound like the divine attributes of anyone? Oh, I’m slow some days. But I’m glad to have finally made that connection. If we needed more hints that Timbre is a Willshaper-spren, this is another!
L: Good call!
Icons
Interlude 10
Double Eye of the Almighty, which is the general icon for Interludes
Interlude 11
The Singer represents Venli’s novella Interludes
Miscellaneous Musings
AA: Let me just say up front that no, Evi’s brother Toh does not make an appearance in this Interlude, despite having taken up residence on the coast of Herdaz. I don’t recall where, but I recently saw someone insisting that he was… the Herdazian general, I think? So I thought I’d address the possibility. He can’t be the Herdazian, because “dark brown skin the color of weathered stone” and “ridiculous little man” don’t exactly match “the tall, blond-haired Westerner.” As for Sheler, he’s Alethi if he’s “cousin to the highlord himself!” (Amaram, I guess?) Also, just in case you missed it, Sheler was the commander of the company which had the squad made of messenger boys—the commander who gave Varth three untrained boys, including Tien, as “soldiers.” Since they were really not useful in fighting, Varth used them as a distraction for the opposing soldiers while his own experienced men regrouped.
AP: Given Toh and Evi’s attitudes toward violence, I wouldn’t expect him to be hanging around with the soldiers anyway. And yes, it seems to be Amaram‘s cousin. Though, do we actually know how many highlords there are per Princedom?
AA: No, we don’t. Probably several, at minimum. I assumed Amaram because he served under Amaram in the much-earlier fighting during Kaladin’s flashbacks.
Stories & Songs
Time to add to our running tally of Listener Rhythms—Curiosity, Awe, Peace, Pleading, Skepticism, Appreciation, Anxiety, Consolation, Praise, Reprimand, Mourning, Lost, Longing, Excitement, Amusement, Irritation, Resolve
ADDED: Annoyance, Remembrance
For the Voidbringers, we’ve got: Rhythm of the Terrors, Craving, Command, Fury, Satisfaction, Derision, Spite, Abashment, Destruction, Agony, Conceit, Ridicule, Subservience
“I’m the wrong one,” Venli said to Annoyance.
L: I find it reeeeaaaally interesting how she unconsciously reverts back to the old Rhythms when she’s talking to Timbre.
AA: There are so many places where you can see Timbre’s influence on her, especially in this chapter. It makes me wonder whether the sapient spren were already around before the conflict began; they seem to resonate so well.
AP: I think that is an early hint that there was a process for the natives of Roshar to bond spren prior to the humans (and Odium) arriving. The one in her gemheart (not exactly a Voidspren like the Fused have, but something else?) obviously pulses to the voidbringer rhythms. Odium, the latecomer to Roshar, has spren that behave in a similar but twisted way to the native spren of Cultivation and Honor. Did he just copy them? Corrupt then? I need more lore!
Venli eventually dropped onto a hard surface. She hummed to Destruction and opened her eyes, finding herself standing on a platform hanging high in the sky, far above Roshar, which was a blue and brown globe below. Behind her was a deep, black nothingness marred only by a tiny blip that could have been a single star.
L: Only one “star?” Interesting that in this vision Odium sends, he doesn’t include the rest of the solar system/Cosmere. Maybe because he thinks of himself as the most important thing in it, so why bother showing anything extraneous?
AA: Hmm. I wasn’t (originally) thinking of it in terms of Odium sending the vision, but of course he is. I assume the “star” is Braize, right? I suppose for purposes of the vision, he is the only thing that matters… he and his prison.
Also, this “conversation” is deeply disturbing. Venli’s reward for working to return their gods is essentially the pain and torture of Damnation, at least in this moment. Congratulations, child, you get to feel what they felt? Yikes. Odium is not a gentle master.
Bruised & Broken
How long will you keep being two people, Venli? She seemed to hear Eshonai’s voice. How long will you vacillate?
L: I struggled with whether to put this here or in Relationships & Romances, but I think for the purposes of this conversation it belongs here. Is Venli really hearing this voice, or is it all in her head? I honestly tend to think the former. If the Fused can reincarnate themselves, why not Eshonai? What if it’s something inherent to their species?
AA: That would be kind of cool, all right. I go with the latter, myself, though. I think she’s either remembering a conversation, or thinking of what her sister would say based on their past interactions. It certainly seems that for much of the first part of her novella, she thinks of Eshonai almost like our concept of “her better angel” or something—her conscience, the part of her that knows what she’s been doing is a really bad idea in the bigger picture.
AP: I would love to see Eshonai be reincarnated! I do wonder what that process is like though. Obviously not every Listener becomes a Fused soul that gets sent back over and over. Or do they? Does Odium get to choose directly? I would guess not, or he would eliminate the useless/insane ones.
AA: I could be wrong, but I think Brandon already quashed the idea of Eshonai returning in any way. I would like to know how the ancestors who repeatedly return were chosen, but I do have a strong impression that it was kind of a one-off—there aren’t new individuals being added to the group.
“I can’t do it,” she whispered to Derision. “You’ve got the wrong sister.”
The wrong sister had died. The wrong sister had lived.
L: Man, talk about your redemption arcs. Venli’s got a looooong climb ahead of her, but I am really excited to see it happen.
AA: Indeed. Once again, Sanderson is taking a character I loved to hate, making her sympathetic, and holding out hope for a fantastic redemption story. I was pretty shocked when he did that with Bluth, and even more with Gaz.
L: For what it’s worth, I’m still on the fence with Gaz. I don’t hate him like I do Moash, but I sure don’t like him either. I don’t see that he’s done much to deserve a redemptive arc yet, but… the story is far from over.
AA: Well, not many of them “deserve” a redemption arc; that’s why they need redemption. I’m not sure what he’s doing with Gaz, yet, but there’s at least that hope that redemption may not only be possible, but desirable. For me, so far, Sanderson has not yet taken step two with Moash. I still find him completely non-sympathetic—which is kind of astounding, considering how much I loathed Venli in Words of Radiance.
AP: Moash isn’t meant to be liked or sympathetic yet. He just had his super bad guy moment. I also don’t know that he needs a redemption arc per se. I want to see him become a sympathetic/complex antagonist for Kaladin. I think that would be a more interesting direction overall. I also don’t forgive Gaz, and don’t find him to be redeemed at all. He is such a heinous character to me.
A form changes the way you think, Venli. … Control the form, don’t let it control you.
But then, Eshonai had been exemplary. A general and a hero. Eshonai had done her duty.
All Venli had ever wanted was power.
AA: This is why I detested her so much in Words of Radiance, and I think her acknowledgement of it here is part of why I’ve come to cheer for her. Self-awareness, and particularly awareness of one’s own faults, is a thing I appreciate.
Buy the Book
Fate of the Fallen
AP: On the other hand, I love Venli’s arc so far. The understanding and then rejection of her current position. The change in attitude from extreme self-centeredness to a desire to help her people. I’m in for it. I love that Eshonai’s influence extends beyond the grave.
Places & Peoples
“You have three choices,” the Herdazian general said.
AA: Woo Herdazians! The criminal gets to choose his own sentence‽ Within limits…
“First, you can choose the sword. … We’ll give the sword to the women you abused. Each gets a hack, one after another. How long it goes on will depend on them.”
AA: Whew! Brutal. Sounds well-deserved, but still brutal. I’m a little shocked with myself for thinking this is a good idea, but they did catch him in the act. It’s not like they maybe got the wrong person or something.
L: He deserves these options. What a pig.
AP: Agreed. And fitting comment Lyndsey, considering his crime and fate…
“Second option … is the hammer. We break your legs and arms, then hang you from the cliff by the ocean. You might last until the storm that way, but it will be miserable.”
AA: I wonder how they do the hanging. If it’s by arms and legs, or wrists and ankles/feet, broken legs would insure that he suffocates within a few hours at most. Couldn’t happen to a more deserving guy.
“… But there’s a third option: the hog. … It lives down by the shore. … We grease you, and you wrestle the hog. It’s fun for the men to watch. They need sport now and then.”
AA: Okay then…
Obviously, the Herdazian general was too frightened to actually /kill/ an Alethi officer. So they would humiliate him by making him wrestle a pig. They’d have a good laugh, then send him away smarting.
AA: Sheler is really thick, isn’t he? Given the first two choices—having your head cut off with a butter knife, or hanging on a cliff with all your limbs broken—he really thinks the third choice would be mere humiliation? Then again, he doesn’t seem to think he’s actually done anything very bad; I mean, they’re just dark-eyed Herdazians he’s been robbing, raping, and murdering. That isn’t all that awful, is it? Riiiiight.
L: He vastly underestimates them because of his own prejudices. What a moron.
AP: I also like the not so subtle push by the general to get him to choose this option by saying that he did it before.
“I’d say ‘good luck,’ boss,” the Herdazian soldier told Sheler… “but I’ve got three marks on you not lasting a full minute…”
… The soldier dashed back up the bank, leaving Sheler locked in place, doused in pungent oil, and gaping as an enormous claw broke the surface of the ocean.
Perhaps “the hog” was more of a nickname.
AA: Ya think?
As noted before, Herdazian military justice is nothing if not direct. But a man who uses his military training (assuming he had no soldiers under his command at this point) to prey on civilians in that way… IMO, he’s forfeited his rights to any better treatment. My only problem with the hog is that it seems too quick, but I expect the anticipation as it comes up out of the water is worth a good bit. Never forget, terror is also a form of communication.
L: Hey, you never know. Maybe it will eat him slowly while he’s still alive! One can hope.
AA: I could get on board with that.
L: Or swallow him whole and let its digestive juices slowly eat away at him. (Can you tell which of us is the horror fan, here?)
AP: I mean, they did add that whole bucket of oil so he goes down easy. (Also a horror fan…)
AA: Yeah, I’ll freely admit that your imaginations are much more developed in these areas! I’m… not a horror fan.
She wasn’t allowed into Kholinar herself. They kept her sequestered in this stormshelter outside, which they called the hermitage.
L: Hmm. I wonder why… Keeping her outside of the city seems a bit counter-productive. Is there something they don’t want her to see? Or is it just that they want to keep her isolated, not able to form any sort of meaningful connection with any of the other singers?
AA: I wondered about that as well. I suspect the latter; for whatever purposes, they want to keep her from any relationships. It’s also possible they fear that there might be other Listeners she would recognize—people too afraid of them to contradict the story outright, but who would mess up Venli’s obedience if she saw them.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
Timbre pulsed to Peace. Upon hearing that, something stirred deep within Venli: the Voidspren that occupied her gemheart. That spren couldn’t think, not like Ulim or the higher Voidspren. It was a thing of emotions and animal instincts, but the bond with it granted Venli her form of power.
L: I find it really interesting that these are non-sapient spren. It makes sense that they can be bonded to singers whereas humans lack the capacity—singers have gemhearts in which to contain the spren, when humans do not.
AA: I appreciated that clarification. These are emotionspren, like angerspren or fearspren, rather than the sapient ones, either Void or Nahel. (Now I wonder if the higher Voidspren like Ulim can form bonds—and what happens if they do!)
L: Are there specific emotionspren that are tied to the Void powers, I wonder? I’d assume that it would have to be the ones that are more commonly associated with the Singer Rhythms, harsher, more negative emotions.
AA: We’re in theory territory here, but my supposition is that specific emotions create specific forms, and that certain forms are more readily manipulated by Odium. I have… yeah, zero evidence for that. It just makes sense to me. An alternate theory could be that emotion spren create Void-friendly forms, while activity spren create non-Void forms, or something like that. E.g. angerspren or passionspren might create a Void form, but creationspren or logicspren would facilitate a non-Void form. Meh. It sounds plausible, maybe?
L: Also… it’s not addressed exactly what emotion the Voidspren is displaying, here. It’s described as “stirring,” but does that mean that it was upset by the old Rhythm of Peace? Or did it perhaps like it?
AA: Good question. Either one seems possible, though I’ve always assumed a conflict between the two sets of rhythms. A little later, when the Everstorm is approaching, the gemheart-spren gets pretty excited about it—it “leaped to feel it.” So my guess is that it recognizes Peace as something foreign to it, at least.
AP: I think these are something different than the “regular” emotionspren. I mentioned above that they pulse to the “new” void rhythms, not the native Rosharan rhythms. I think they are of Odium, but whether created or corrupted, I dunno!
AA: I do hope we get more information on this—and I think it’s probable, given the focus of the next book.
On a side note, I can’t help remembering back in Words of Radiance, after Eshonai accepted the stormform—every time she tried to attune Peace to calm herself, she could hear “herself” screaming in her head, which seems to have been Timbre. Now we have Timbre attuning Peace almost as much as Resolve. Interesting indeed.
Timbre suddenly pulsed with a flash of light, and zipped away under the bed, terrified.
“Ah,” Venli said to Mourning, looking past the city at the sudden darkening of the sky. The Everstorm.
L: Timbre is scared of the Everstorm… I wonder if it’s just because it remembers what happened when Eshonai and the others got Stormform, or if most of the sapient spren are afraid of it. I don’t recall Syl or Pattern being scared of the Everstorm…
AA: IIRC, Syl was worried about the stormspren, but she saw them in the highstorm. Wyndle was more worried about being used as a weapon than he was about the Everstorm. I’d go with remembering what happened to Eshonai, and her vulnerability since she’s not even bonded to Venli yet.
Also, Venli responds to the Everstorm with mourning? That’s… cool.
AP: Well, we know that the Fused are on the lookout for spren like Timbre. Maybe she recognizes the storm as a way that she could be “seen” and then caught?
Sheer Speculation
Those monsters insisted her people were gone, and rebuffed her questions about the thousands of listeners who had survived the Battle of Narak.
L: Theory: They’re still alive and this is where Rlain vanished off to during the course of this book. He’s gone to find them and bring them back around.
AA: I agree with this theory. There should be two groups—or at least I hope there are. There’s the group of those who refused stormform and escaped into the chasms before they were executed; we’ve heard nothing at all about them, and Brandon has so far refused to answer questions about them. There’s the other group, the one Venli is thinking of, who were stormforms during the battle and escaped the clashing storms. She was with them for a time, before she and a few others were taken to be “honored” with Fused takeovers. Now Venli is—rightly—worried that all of her friends have been conscripted for Fused. While you could sort of say they had it coming, I find myself hoping for redemption for more than just Venli.
I kind of hope Rlain finds the first group, but I wouldn’t mind if he found the second group and restored them, too. I just hope, between the two groups, there will be some who resist the Voidforms.
Quality Quotations
- She didn’t close the window. He didn’t like that.
AA: I wonder if Sanderson intended this to sound as “abuse victim” as it does…
- You are mine. Remember this.
Stay tuned to the same storm-channel at the same storm-time next week, when we’ll be covering Chapter 88, in which Dalinar makes a new friend.
Alice is (hopefully) done travelling for the summer, but life doesn’t slow down. LaserQuest upcoming!
Lyndsey is heading to a small anime convention in Massachusetts this weekend, where she’ll be competing in the masquerade and participating in the Cosplay Death Match (hopefully not against The Hog). If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or Instagram.
Aubree is attuning the Rhythm of Peace to avoid stress from work deadlines! It mostly sounds like Enya.
Rlain is for sure talking m tracking down his people. (As far as I’m concerned.) Whether he retrieves just one group or both, that would be quite a twist. The humans will have a hard enough time putting aside their prejudice for a bunch of listeners who rejected the forms of power. Throw in a bunch of the ones who called down the Everstorm and that complicates things even more.
I am surprised at hearing some readers thought the Herdazian general could be Toh… Gentle, soft-spoken Toh would have never recycled himself as a war general even if his physical appearance matched the general. It makes me wonder what he is up to though… why he isolated himself, apparently abandoning his sister in hostile Alethkar, not taking any interest in his nephews. Did he leave just so he could enjoy a warmer climate or was it something else? Why did he wait for Adolin being born before leaving? Anyway.
On redemption, it is undeniable this is a theme Brandon has explored within many of his characters. Few of them ever deserved a redemption which is why they are getting it, I definitely agree with this comment. From a narrative point of view though, not all villains can get redemption or else the narrative will quickly become repetitive. In other words, this ploy becomes uninteresting the moment each villain presented within the narrative is guaranteed to redeem himself/herself by developing a Nahel Bond. Much like when one character too many died then came back in WoR, I fear one character too many might have been offered a redemption without properly paying for their deeds. In this optic, does Venli have to redeem herself? Seems like this is inevitable, but wouldn’t it be more interesting if she didn’t? If she became a Radiant to oppose Dalinar? Does Gaz need to redeem himself? Is he really likable enough to get one and does the narrative *really* need to go there with him?
And Moash… I do not hate Moash. I find him a complex character who been dealt with all the wrong cards and made all the wrong decisions. He is definitely not beyond redemption, but would it be interesting in the narrative for him to get one or would it be more interesting to have him oppose the Alethi, truly yearning to rebuilt society to the Fused image? I think the latter has more dramatic potential than the former.
I love Brandon, but sometimes, he tends to paddle too much within the same thematics. Redemption is a powerful narrative tool is used sparingly. Having characters unexpectantly avoid consequences can be interesting if it isn’t the norm and readers don’t end up feeling anyone ever face consequences in this story. With OB, I felt Brandon spun the same thematic on too many characters which is why I wish no everyone will get redemption.
I want to read a failed redemption. I want to read characters who are forced to face the consequences of their actions through other means than having an “inner arc where they complain about it”. Venli screwed up her people because of her greed and ambition, let her live to see what it means.
The Herdaizian general interests me. most of the others interludes had hinted at future plot lines, or introducing characters that have some kind of connection with the entire story. This…seems to be just a crazy general who likes to watch people wrestle with Greatshells, unless this goes more into the mystery involving the great shells.
@Gepeto You do, Sadeas, Adolin tried to ask him to join them, he was a dick, he died. Amaran. he was offered a chance to come back, he rejected it, he died. There you go, failed redemption. Moarsh, Kal offered him a chance last book, he became worst.
@@.-@: Big villains who were never going to get redeemed… Sadeas and Amaram died before they could get redemption. What power do Adolin words, spilled in a corridor, truly have? Sadeas never even had the time to see how the circumstances had changed before he was killed. He isn’t a failed redemption, he never made it far enough to see the game he was playing at changed. Amaram plummeted down out of practically nowhere and we never got to read his thoughts, hardly a failed redemption either.
I am referring to known characters with a bit more fleshing out than those two who are automatically earning a redemption. Dalinar. Szeth. Venli. Gaz. Probably Moash but I hope not despite my sympathies for him. Elhokar. Even Jasnah and Adolin are allowed to murder people without facing consequences. That’s a strong theme Brandon has going on here… Be a bad person, do bad actions, but so long as you accept you did those things, here get a spren and redemption: no one will ever question your actions ever again since you admitted them. Everyone will just accept your redemption and no one will care about what you did.
I find many characters have gone down the same arc already. So yes, I thought it’d be nice if Venli narrative could be surprising and not at all what we expect.
@2 Elhokar, to me, is your failed redemption who was forced to face the consequences of his actions.
@6: When? Before or after he got to be awarded a Radiant spren who has been trailing him for a long time? Elhokar never had the time to face any consequences, he barely had the time to acknowledge he was a bad king, but what consequences did he face? None really. His redemption only failed because he was killed before he got to go through with it.
@6 – I think the narrative pretty clearly showed that Elhokar was redeemed. Otherwise, he wouldn’t be about to bond a spren.
@8: He bonded his spren a long time before the events in OB. He saw “shadows” in the mirror as early as early WoK and the narrative implied this has been going one for a long time. He doesn’t start to change his perspective until OB which coincides with his starting to progress with the bond, but he never got to get through with it because Moash kills him before.
That’s why Moash is so hated because he cut short Elhokar’s redemption, but without Moash, Elhokar was getting a redemption arc.
What I was referring to mostly were characters not getting redeem as their narrative suggests they would. Just adding more plot twist on character development. I thought this would be interesting. I hate going into book 4 already knowing what the very long main focus will be about: Venli getting redeemed and joining Team Radiant. Why would I want to read 200K words on a narrative I already know how it will end?
Hence, I will be team #plotwist.
@9 – Ok, to be more technical, he wasn’t about to complete the First Ideal without some kind of redemption.
I think this is more alluding to the theme of powers needing “consent” before entering structures. He used it in Mistborn, where the mists couldn’t enter if the door was closed, and also, Taravangian had to open the window to let Odium in.
So, I am on record for being disappointed that Eshonai died and we got Venli instead. After OB I liked Venli well enough, but I would have preferred a story about Eshonai becoming aware of being mind-controlled, playing a dangerous cat-and-mouse game trying to outwit her handler(s) and minimize the harm that she was forced to inflict and eventually breaking free. For some reason, this theme really resonates with me and I seem doomed to be disappointed because even the stories that touch on it, somewhat, like Babylon 5, Nu Battlestar Galactica and Jessica Jones show don’t go into it as much as I’d like. I even read the canon B5 novels which I hoped would deal with the issue, but they mostly veer in a different direction and are very perfunctory concerning this plot point.
Venli’s story is very different and too reminiscent of Dalinar’s and even Szeth’s. The wrong sibling died, somewhat involuntary slaughter/genocide committed, yadda, yadda. Yes, she is more of a Gavilar, but still. Also, Ulim specifically told her that Eshonai’s bonding happened improperly because she tried to resist in the end, which is why, presumably, she ended up bluntly mind-controlled and her personality changed drastically, as she herself noted, while Venli remained pretty much herself, just even more callous and power-hungry.
Which is why I disagree with Alice that the screaming in Eshonai’s head came from Timbre, rather than from Eshonai’s supressed real personality. Certainly, Venli hears none. OTOH, it now occurs to me that Eshonai was also bonded to a dead shardblade at the time, so maybe some complex interplay of all 3?
It is an interesting question whether there are other voidform Listeners – from everything we have seen, the newly awakened parshmen aren’t ready to be Regals, yet there seem to be some around, though Venli never met another one personally. Are they former Listeners? There don’t seem to be enough Fused as yet to have consumed all the surviving stormform Listeners, but it is certainly a race against time.
Concerning Rlain and the remaining Listeners – let me boringly repeat again that there has be a third group of them around: children and their minders. Or a good explanation for why there aren’t any. This war ran for only 6 years and there were about 30K Listeners at Narak before the last Alethi offensive and far more than that before the hostilities broke out. Yet, through Eshonai’s PoV we haven’t seen a single child, even though we know that the Listeners didn’t completely stop having sex during the war, since she did see some frolicking mateforms.
So bunch of thoughts
First, thank you for reminding me Sheler worked under Amaram/was his cousin. Totally forgot that, and awesome tidbit to see how things all link up!
Second, love the Timbre resolute comment. Just the kind of foreshadowing I could see Brandon doing!
Third, like with Elhokar, I love the development Brandon put into Venli. I think it really shows his skill as a writer that he can make us dislike a character, and then do a total heel toe and end up cheering them on.
Fourth, I have read of a loose theory that the Herdazian General will end up being a dustbringer. All very loose evidence, but I like it because I think it will be fun to see!
Fifth, I like the theory that specific emotion spren would lead to specific forms and would lend to being controllable by Odium.
Sixth, count me among those that hope for and cannot wait for a reunion with Rlain, Thule and the lost listeners. I think such a thing is very important to show that it is not black and white in war. There are very much shades of gray, and having parshendi and humans on both sides of the conflict I think demonstrates this very well.
Steven Hedge @3:
There have been suggestions that the Herdazian general was (subconsciously?) using the surge of Abrasion and making himself “slick” for his escape artist antics. IIRC, he is also dark-eyed despite Herdaz being technically Vorin. Or maybe they weren’t? IIRC, we didn’t see a light-eyed Herdazian so far, but they used to be quite belligerent, as Dalinar’s flashbacks showed.
Gepeto @9:
I am with you, but OTOH, it is kinda normal for male characters to redeem themselves and for female ones to fail tragically or die doing so and I don’t want to see a repetition of this trope.
Anybody have trouble reconciling Lopen with other Herdazians? Especially with the fact that they wage war. I’m starting to think he’s an oddity among them.
I just gotta say though, a lot of people in these comments seem to think that the characters who have done terrible things are being “rewarded” by being nael bonded and that redemption is a “reward”. Since when is redemption a reward? it’s a journey, a path, you don’t instantly get everything you want because you do one good thing and than everyone forgets your mistakes. Daliniar and Szeth don’t see themselves as being rewarded, they see it as a way to be better, to try to make up for their past sins. the nahel bonds aren’t cool superpowers to them, Look at Szeth for example, he did not see his carrying the honorblade and the powers it came with as something cool and awesome, he saw them as a punishment for his perceived crimes of telling the truth, that his sins of killing people were punishment. Kaladin and Shallan don’t see their powers as something awesome and superheroic, they see them as responsibilities. The nahel bonds aren’t like being a mistborn where they just happen to be special, they aren’t a gift, they are symbols of having a similar mindset and to help improve the world, they are a duty, and to take from wheel of time: “Death is lighter than a feather, Duty as heavier as a mountain” these powers aren’t gifts.
There only being one star in the sky in Odium’s vision reminds me of Dalinar’s final vision in WoK where he talks to Honor. Honor points to the sky and the stars start blinking out one by one.
“This isn’t just about you either,” the figure said, raising his hand into the air. A light winked out in the sky, one that Dalinar hadn’t realized was there. Then another winked out as well. The sun seemed to be growing dimmer.
“It’s about all of them,” the figure said
– WoK Ch. 75
Elohkar was a bad king on his way to trying to become a good king but I would hardly say he redeemed himself. If getting stabbed in the eye and killed, by someone that wants to kill you as a result of your bad actions, right as you were about to say the words and really begin to become a radiant isn’t consequences I don’t know what is.
@@@@@ Gepeto,
What does a failed redemption look like to you? Is it people not accepting the “apology” or something else? Because even dying could complete the redemption arc for Moash, even if he doesn’t actively do anything for Team Radiant until the very end. My personal belief is that Taravangian won’t be redeemed. As for killing having consequences, if Roshar was a “just” world, the Fused wouldn’t be enslaved to Odium. All of the heroes in Sanderson’s novels have killed or “murdered” someone evil. I don’t know if those count as bad acts, even if they would be here on Earth. Also not all of Sanderson’s books are about redemption, really only the SA. Mistborn wasn’t about really about redemption. Neither was Warbreaker or Elantris.
@@@@@ Isilel,
I don’t think Venli is like Dalinar at all. True, sibling deaths were the catalyst, but the redemption arcs are different. Dalinar’s is about personal choice while Venli’s seems to be reconciling with herself to become the leader who her sister would have been. Lastly, Eshonai wouldn’t have a redemption arc because she hasn’t done anything “wrong” to be redeem herself from.
@19 I disagree about Taravangian mostly because I feel everyone who goes to get a boon and a curse is like a bullet fired by Cultivation at Odium.
@20 Everyone? Even the guy who saw everything as upside down? The true downfall of Odium!
Also, who says that spren only bond good people? Spren have a different mindset from people. I can totally see some of them sticking their Nahel bond up the cracks in the soul of a human who has been tortured out of all compassion and is now a cheerfully slaughtering psychopath…
@Gepeto, about Elkohar being rewarded for his redemption arc with a spren bond, I sort of doubt that he saw the faces in the mirrors as very rewarding. (We got the whole thing from Shallan’s POV – the Cryptics can be scawwy). I don’t think Szeth feels very rewarded about carrying around sword-sama and having to atone for all his storm-ups instead of being peacefully dead.
If what those poor characters are going through is your concept of a reward, then we have very different ideas from what that means ;)
@16/20: That quote was not invented by Robert Jordan. :) Also, the guy who sees everything upside down may have gotten off easy! :D
@22 true! it’s just where I know it from the most hehe. But I agree with you. I don’t see the bonds as “rewards” for anything.
and we actually do know a character who doesn’t seem to be on the up and up and she has a nahel bond: The member from the Diagram that I cannot remember the name of, the one that Tavaragain used to get into dalinar’s good graces. Its heavily implied that her spren blames human, heck, even Timbre isn’t appreciative of humans. the spen bond with those who are compatiable, that doesn’t make them good. Look at the skybreakers as well.
Aubree. I agree with you on Gaz. I was hoping that he would be flown to Kholinar as part of the mission and then dropped by somebody in Bridge 4.
I wonder if the “hog” in the Interlude 10 is in the same class or family to chasmfiends.
Pattern definitely was concerned/worried about the Everstorm. It is because of the Evertstorm that he kept vibrating and became noticed by the Ardents when Shallan was trying to activate it.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
That always seemed to me to be Venli’s own thoughts. I haven’t read an Eshonai POV in a while, but “How long will you vacillate?” sounds more like Venli vocabulary to me, for one thing. Brandon’s a very smart and educated guy, he knows that people in mourning often hallucinate the voices of their loved ones. Why wouldn’t a fantasy character do that?
Speaking of mourning …
The Everstorm killed everyone she loved, except her mother. Naturally she associates it with mourning.
@austin:
I totally don’t get this. Lopen is not a pacifist, and I can definitely see commonalities with other Herdazians.
@21 Cultivation plays a long, long game. Who knows what actions that man took that may have furthered her ambitions.
@14: Huh, good point. I honestly never considered female characters failing tragically while male characters redeem themselves a trope but now you point it out…
I do not share your grievances in being disappointed Brandon settled on the Venli narrative as opposed to Eshonai’s as I do agree with him, the book didn’t need another commensurate dutiful warrior. I, however, agree with your analysis where you present Venli as yet another sibling forced to take over when the “better sibling” gets prematurely killed. I had never seen it this way, but now you point it out, I do.
I guess my grievances come mostly from not thinking the proposed Venli narrative is innovative nor refreshing enough to commander such a large portion of RoW. This is where I actually sit, in a place where I wonder if RoW will be a book I’ll enjoy reading or if it’ll just be one large essay on Parshendi lore with Venli having a predictable redemption. Hopefully, my fears will be rendered null once I read the book, but I will state I am not feeling very strongly about the upcoming narrative. My hopes had been Brandon would still focus most of the story on the Kholins and Shallan, but it seems he won’t and Venli will truly get the lion share of the viewpoints which doesn’t generate much enthusiasm from my side.
@16: I find it is a reward when you have been allowed to murder your way into life and yet still end up in a position of power, surrounded by the richness, loved by everyone around you with a spren making you one of the most powerful on the planet. Having accepted your own guilt shouldn’t absolve anyone from having to pay the price for their actions. So far, the lack of price being paid for murder and burning of cities hasn’t sat well with me, but we have been there. I know most disagree, so I’ll leave it there. I just feel the narrative would feel more realistic to me if not everyone was forgiven for his deeds upon getting a spren.
@19: Someone who chooses not to change, who stays… bad. Say, had Dalinar become Odium’s Champion, he would have had a failed redemption. Should Venli not end up working for Dalinar’s team, her redemption would be failed because she wouldn’t pursue the path we consider the rightful one. That’s what I meant, having characters who aren’t so easily forgiven or fall down. Like Moash, providing he doesn’t get a redemption.
Those are my thoughts are this point in time of the story, they may evolve if we start reading characters having to face consequences and failing at redeeming themselves. I mentioned Venli, but it could be other characters too, like Taravangian. I’d be satisfied with this.
@22: Had he not die, Elhokar would have been rewarded. He would have become the worshiped hero he so wanted to be as one of the few new Radiants. Sure, it didn’t start as something positive but had he survive, Elhokar would have been one of the most important individuals on Roshar… so quite a reward for someone who never really tried before.
The Radiants aren’t holding the upper hand in terms of suffering or are we really thinking Elhokar suffered and was a “poor person”? Besides, Brandon re-said how not everyone having been chosen to become a Radiant had a “sob story” nor was “broken”. So becoming a Radiant doesn’t equate suffering, in many cases, it equates a second chance in life which was not always deserved. Dalinar, Venli, Elhokar and even Szeth, did they really, really, “deserve” it? What did Venli do to deserve it except being at the right place at the right moment?
@27:
Hold out her hand and hide a vulnerable spren from being squashed by the minions of darkness!
Gepeto @5. I think that as written, both Torol and Amaram have more “flesh” on them than Gaz. To me each is much more nuanced than Gaz. Gaz is no more than a lackey. I almost referred to Torol as “Sadeas”. But in Oathbringer, Amaram becomes the new Sadeas.
Isilel @12. I also would liked to have read that story of Eshoni trying to counter and atone for her actions. From what we saw of her in WoR, she had a good heart – was trying to do good for her people as she saw it. Venli, on the other hand (as you point out and Venli notes in text), is out for power and her own interests. The consequences to her fellow Listeners be damned.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@Gepeto I know you and me have had this back and forth on whether Dalinar’s redemption is earned or not for…well weeks now, heh I know your stance, and you know mine. I just don’t see the powers as a reward. the ONLY reason dalinar was not punished for his crimes was because of his family connections, and because of lies spread by said family connections. Dalinar chose to spread the lies to protect Eri’s honor and reputation among the elthei, Galivar and Sadeas chose to spread the lies as well in order to keep the fear of Dalinair in the hearts of the other High Princes. and Galivar only cared about the results: get the rebellion gone and keep the others from betraying them. To them, it was war, they don’t have a sense of war crimes or war trials. what had to be done is done, the rebels are dead, they won. Dalinar also spent years in grief on what he had done, that is not the reaction of a uncaring and innocent man. Culitvation taking away his memories wasn’t a reward, she herself was preparing him to use as a weapon against Odium, that has nothing to do with his deeds, she wouldn’t care about them.
“The hog” sounds a bit like the Marabethian practice of giving convicts the option of getting offered to a yu-nerig greatshell (dangled over a seaside cliff with their cheeks cut open to aftract it with blood) and pardoned on the rare occasions when it doesn’t attack within a week. That could be why Lift saw “Ol’ Whitehair” jump down a greatshell’s throat — a man imppied to be Hoid, who once spent “half a year” being digested by something very large, which most people presumably couldn’t survive. So “the hog’ could indeed be a slow and painful death. I’m not a horror fan, I’m Vore-in. *smirk*
@27,@28 and sorry for the double posts here, but we really shouldn’t get into the argument of “what did certain characters do to deserve it” when you can easily argue the opposite:, what did Shallan do to deserve the powers? what did Bridge Four do to deserve it? Shallan was like 6 or 7 when she first had Pattern, Arguably the bridgemen only started to get powers because they hanged out with Kaladin (their deaths and sacrafices nonwithstanding) Arguably dalniar szeth and venli did more because they felt guilt and wished to change for their actions, bridge four just followed Kal’s orders. Shallan was too young to really understand anything. I suggest we do not go there because that can end in bickering and really go nowhere.
Probably because I see Lopen as so outlandishly cartoonish, that I can’t take him seriously. I think Brandon went way too far with Lopen as a character. It’s like dropping Ace Ventura inside of Game of Thrones.
If Sheler is Amaram’s cousin, and Roshone is Amaram’s cousin, can we assume that Sheler and Roshone are cousins? Stellar family, that. So, is it really a coincidence that the kid that Roshone tried to get onto the frontlines loses his protection at the first opportunity and ends up on the frontlines, or was that one cousin doing the other a favor? Seems an odd thing to mention the relationship unless there is some sort of meaning behind the mention.
@Gepeto
I had a good chuckle at your turn of phrase, here, and I really agree with you on that. I often want to go into a rant about “redemption”, because it seems to often overlook the harm done or treat the harmees like they are being unreasonable for looking askance at the harmer. Redemption is a great thing, but if that includes taking responsibility for their actions, shouldn’t they take responsibility for the consequences of their action, including the desire for justice from those they harmed?
@33 Bolton: Flay this clown and hang his skin from my banner!
Ace: Alrighty then.
@11 Igaucufalls
I agree. There is a WoB where he says the further inside they are, the more able they are to resist. They could still transform inside a building, but it would be more difficult. I will add the WoB.
@16 Steven Hedge
Given the long discussion last time this all came up, I think it is of no surprise that I agree with you.
@22 manavortext
I agree
@23 Steven Hedge
I think it keeps coming back to that the spren are extremely personal, even when belonging to the same order. They are individuals. So individually they are going to each look for different things and bond different people. There isn’t a check list of “this person did A, B, and C, so they must become X order”. Personally I find comparing individual radiants, and trying to decide who “deserves” it or not is an exercise in futility.
@24 AndrewHB
I agree. I think Gaz could be a very interesting lightweaver and I think he is well on his way.
I would not be surprised. Greatshell seems to be a pretty general classification based on size.
Good point regarding Pattern!
@26 John
I agree
@28 manavortext
That is a beautiful scene to picture. Darkness all around, a tiny light in her hand, shielding it.
@29 AndrewHB
Good point. Sadeas and Amaram both had plenty of fleshing out. Both had plenty of opportunities for redemption (Sadeas was offered to work with Dalinar on multiple occasions. Amaram even at the end was offered to join team honor by Dalinar and he refused). Both turned their back on that redemption. Both died on the opposing side. Works for me.
@31 AeronaGreenjoy
I agree
@32 Steven Hedge
I agree
@33 Austin
LOL Ace Ventura in Game of Thrones lol
@28: That’s not deserving… The woman has been plotting to annihilate her own people in service of her own personal greed and harboring a rogue spren is somehow enough to atone for the destruction of her people? She did nothing to deserve to become a Willshaper. She never was the exploring type, nor adventurous, nor did she have Eshonai’s ill-placed curiosity which is exactly what some readers have pointed out: she isn’t a great pick, she was merely picked because she stood at the right place at the right moment. Timbre prevented the Fused from taking her for no reason we could see in the narrative other than it was convenient for her (by her I mean Timbre). That’s why I find it is difficult to feel for Venli, what has she done to deserve Timbre? Sure, now she has Timbre, she tries to protect her, but is this enough? How to manage to go through this story without feeling the best shot at becoming a Radiant is to start up being the most despicable person possible, then makes amends through a sob-like narrative and thus earning a spren?
What is there to conclude but Radiancy first rewards those guilty of the worst of crimes so long as they feel sufficiently guilty about them? So that’s what it takes… Murder people, betray people, annihilate people, feel sorry about it once it is done and then attract a spren… And I know we do have examples of Radiant not following this trajectory, but I am somehow concerned over having 3 out of 5 main protagonists chosen out of this mold. If it were only one, I wouldn’t be so squeamish about it.
@29: I agree about Gaz, there is very little flesh to him and I personally do not find he is redeeming himself. He is just attaching himself to someone who offers him a better life prospect than being a deserter.
@30: Ah, I actually agree about you as to why Dalinar was never punished. I agree it makes sense given the circumstances. The problem is, on top of Dalinar, we also have Szeth and Venli and we scratch outside the Radiants, we also have Adolin who gets away with murder. We could add Jasnah. For me, it seems this theme has been reused too many times over: I’d love to read someone (anyone, doesn’t have to be Dalinar specifically, he’s gone too far to fall now) falling from grace and suffer consequences despite “family ties” and “family lies”.
I feel as if the Kholin family, as a whole, stands above the law… I love the Kholins, but that’s not a good feeling and it isn’t fun to read a story when you know in advance no matter what the characters will do, there will be no consequences.
Whatever Cultivations intend was, it turned out as a reward to Dalinar because he freed himself of his past and he managed to grow into a better person. He would have never achieved the same while carrying the burden of his past deeds.
@32: We could argue about Shallan too. It is only the fact she has to murder her parents out of consequences for Pattern choosing her she comes across differently. We could argue about any character, but let’s just say some picks need a stronger rational and, in the end, it boils down towards whether or not, as a reader, I can buy it. True redemption is very rare, can I buy so many characters earning it so quickly? Can I buy so many characters getting so many second chances? Can I buy half of the new Radiants were picked among former criminals? Of course, everyone else is buying it, only I struggle with it, but maybe others who read feel the same. We may never know.
@34: Was it badly phrased? My grammar corrector highlighted no mistake, but huh, you never know. I am sometimes guilty of mishandling the English prose.
I agree with you about justice for those having suffered the consequences. They have no voice in SA. I find the narrative Brandon is proposing is one-sided and lacks the complexity required to truly reach into a multi-layered chain reaction. Yes, Dalinar is a great man now, but does this mean those who suffered at his hands have no right to demand justice? Yes, Sadeas was a crem, but does this mean Ialai has no reason to demand Adolin being trialed? Yes, Szeth is now a Radiant and was manipulated, but does this mean Jah Keved cannot ask for his destitution given he has actually allowed himself to be used as a weapon knowing it was wrong?
The story never goes there and, after OB, I find it has to. Well, I want it to.
@37, Gepeto: But you don’t know if they’ll never suffer consequences. Maybe Brandon is still setting them up! You sound as if you knew for certain that there weren’t any dropping shoes in their future. I sure don’t, and if they were my characters, they wouldn’t even see what hit them. }:)
@Gepeto
I still don’t quite understand you.
Yes, that is pretty much what redemption is though. You are trying to atone for past wrongs. That’s Honor’s deal though – that the journey from tortured soul to peace is what trying to do good is all about. And even then, you don’t even have to have done wrong to do it – Lift being the primary example. You say 3/5 protagonists, but Lift actually makes it 3/6. Sometimes you just get “lucky” to get a spren and then it’s up to you. I mean, Hoid has a spren that he didn’t attract and is clearly going to bond with. Also who says ambition isn’t essentially exploring and learning, even if it’s for your own benefit? You forget that Venli was a scholar – she helped discover nimbleform.
As for some sort of consequence for the powerful people who get away with murder, that would be nice. But we’re only on book three of ten. Like manavortex said, there should be plenty of time for that, I would imagine – especially with Dalinar’s book and Szeth’s return to the Shin. On the other hand though, I don’t understand how you’re so hung up about the Kholinars paying for their crimes, but are still sort of “meh” of the Parsh. If you want a story where the powerful have to pay up, then the Parsh “taking back” what is rightfully theirs from the humans and finding their culture again should be of interest to you. That’s true injustice and something that can’t be solved so easily as a trial, as complicated as Dalinar’s and Szeth’s situations are. I mean there is no way Ialai is innocent of anything, so why should she get justice any more than the slaves who died under Sadeas did. Why would the people who Dalinar burned be due any more justice than the Dawnsingers got?
@38: You are right, no I don’t in the same manner, after WoR, readers didn’t know if Brandon would ever kill an important character “for real”. It may just be the next book will bring about the layers I have been seeking and all of this discussion will become outdated. All I can say, for now, is speak of which tangential I’d like the next book to take. I wish for it to be more than 200K worth of Venli redeeming herself and gaining the support of Dalinar’s team. I want more layers, more complexity, more characters second-guessing the Radiants and tangible consequences for actions.
Human nature is seldom rational. Hence, just because a course of action is logical due to the upcoming Desolation, doesn’t mean it is the most realistic. An example would be everyone backing Dalinar because it makes more sense as opposed to breaking free of the coalition out of not wanting to follow the man how burned the Rift (that’s assuming Dalinar makes the content of his book public within RoW). The latter is the rational decision, the former is the more realistic one because people aren’t robots, they have emotions and when placed in front of a team made-up a former warlord, an ex-assassin, an enemy Parshendis, maybe they’ll want to take their chances elsewhere. I guess we have Iri who stands for this but Iri isn’t exactly part of the narrative, currently.
Another take would be the Highprinces and the Queen demanding Szeth to face trial for having killed Gavilar. Ialai finally prooving she deserved being referred to as the “most cunning and dangerous woman on Alethkar” by demanding the same for Adolin. Or someone second-guessing Kaladin once the truth about Moash and how he couldn’t protect Elhokar out of sympathy for the Parshendis comes out if it ever does.
Just seeing the path the characters have taken have external consequences which are actually happening as opposed to hinted at happening, like Amaram’s downfall which was never neatly tied down to its trigger, Adolin murdering Sadeas and refusing to take the blame for it.
@39: I do not count Lift because she isn’t a protagonist within the first half: she currently is a minor sider-character. I was counting the protagonists from the first half who are: Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Venli and Szeth. Out of this group, 3 out of 5 have done terrible actions in their past and are seeking redemption for having caused a lot of innocent deaths.
I do not count Hoid because he too isn’t a protagonist within the narrative, he too is a minor side-character. Sure, he is “important” within the world of the Cosmere, but when I read SA, he isn’t a character I am reading. He is a character who occasionally pops in and has yet to prove what his purpose is. In other words, we aren’t reading his story, so whatever he does remains being examined under the cover of the main focus which he isn’t getting in SA.
I do not care about the Parshendis supposedly taking up what is theirs because the conquest happened some four thousand years ago. On Earth, back in those days, the Egyptians were building the pyramids: literally, no one is expected to care nor to take actions based on power tides which have been swayed away thousand of years ago. Sure, it is sad the Parshendis lost their land, but I seriously cannot do much else than raise an eyebrow at it. The Parshendis arc is absurd because of the time which has elapsed since the faithful event and because those they are trying to exterminate have nothing to do with it. It was too long ago! I am supposed to feel sorry for them? Four thousand years later???
I care more about tangential consequences which are felt in the present. Things that are happening now, not who has the greater cause to exterminate who based on events which happened thousands of years ago.
@Gepeto The parsh lost more than their land. they lost their lives and minds, their sense of self. techicalnnnly they should get more justice than a group of people who, unfournatly, have no one to call justice for them. Let’s assume that there are NO survivors from the Rift. who will be crying for them (besides Dalinar) You have to remember Alethi mindsets: the Rift were rebels who lost, meaning they MUST be weak. the high princes won’t care or call for a trial for a quashed rebellion, they are all too self centered for that. To the people of that world, there will be no one calling for justice for the Rift. It is even questionable they would call for a trial for szeth. they might just call for his head. I know you are concerned from a reader point, but the character actions have to make sense for the characters as well, that’s what makes good writing. I just can’t see any real plausible reason the high princes would call for trials for old events, when they would be concerned for a more “important” reason: Jasnah. to them, they have to deal with a Queen all of a sudden, quashing the usual rule: men are leaders. Though I can see Inalai taking advantage of this and proclaiming her self High Princess, High Ruler? something like that.but she will have to deal with Jasnah protecting Adolin, something Jasnah will do with a ferocity. so there might not be anything coming out of adolin confessing either. its politics, it sucks, but that’s what it is.
I loved seeing Sheler get what’s coming to him. Not only was he a terrible person in Herdaz, but he is responsible for Tien’s death and many other boys. I like everyone connected to Amaram to get what they deserve. The Hog sounds almost funny in the beginning, but terrifying as a way to die-slowly being digested Sarlac-style is my head cannon.
As for Venli, I’m happy to see her moving in the right direction. Maybe because we aren’t as close to the Listeners as we are to the bridge crews or other human groups but I don’t resent her as much as Moash, Gaz, Amaram, etc. even though what she did to her people was terrible. FWIW, I think the voice she hears as Eshonai is really Timbre speaking in her head or maybe out loud. Sad as it is, Eshonai is in the Beyond. Unless she found a way to come back, but even then I don’t think she would choose that path.
@41: I agree, but the humans also aren’t to be blamed for it. Based on what we know, it was the Bondsmith (Melishi) who made this decision and, even then, he did not know what the consequences would be. How are present-day humans to be blamed for actions conducted by Radiants of old of unforeseen consequences?
As much as want a call for justice, this isn’t a righteous one. The humans had very good reasons to want to take dire actions against the Parshendis as whatever happened four thousand years ago, the ones trying to exterminate the other during the present-day were the Parshendis. Having been wronged once doesn’t give anyone leeway for genocide.
As far as we know, there were no survivors from the Rift, so no one to call for justice. And yes, I agree the winning faction has no interest in holding it against Dalinar, but the other factions, the foreign ones, perhaps would. Moreover, at the very least, the event, once it becomes known, should be enough for Dalinar to lose some of the blind trust/love he has been given by his closed ones. There needs to be a consequence for actions and if the Rift ends up having none, then I sure hope some of the others I mentioned will. It is the fact I feel no action taken by any character has consequences which bother me, the globality of it all. What grates me is this knowledge if a character (especially a Kholin) makes a mistake or takes the wrong decision, nothing will happen out of it.
Yes, you are right to point out the actions do make sense, but from a reader’s point of view, it is just too much pulling of the blanket on the same side. Villains like Amaram couldn’t escape consequences for their actions, but the Kholins can. It makes sense, but it does take away from the narrative to be able to guess the outcome.
I have considered the possibility of Ialai proclaiming herself Highprince and demanding justice or merely walking out of Alethkar. Or striking a deal with the Fused. Those are very interesting narrative elements to explore. And yeah, probably nothing more will come out from the Adolin arc and that’s a shame. So much noise for so little, how can I have faith the next book will deliver when every loose end I cared about were dropped in OB? Granted, this is my personal problem and no one else but still, the “nothing happens” denouement left a very bad taste in my mouth and when I add Dalinar, Venli, and Szeth to the lot, I do not know what to think anymore.
@@@@@ 40,43 Gepeto
What significance does it being the first half play if you’re trying to assess Radiants and how amenable they are to the redemption theme? If it turns out that they are the exceptions, rather than the rule, then they just happen to be the most extreme cases aka the special ones. The ones that will struggle the most and provide the most internal drama, which is why we got to see them first.
Regarding Hoid, sure you can discount his actions as a character in SA, but if you’re going to talk about redemption as a theme that Sanderson constantly uses, you have to include Hoid. Based on all the WOBs that we’ve gotten, it seems to set up to be a long term redemption arc.
Lastly, the Parshendi. I mean, you are supposed to care and it does influence the story. What to do with the Parshendi is already a big part of the story. Both thematically, through Kaladin and Rlain, and plotwise because well, they are everywhere. Some of the Fused are also the same Parsh that were on Roshar during the original conquest; they had direct interaction. The Heralds came from Ashyn and were clearly on Roshar for the original conquest. The entire setup is literally the backbone of the story.
I don’t blame the present day humans, but it’s just clearly unfair about what happened to the parsh. An entire culture lost through no fault of their own and stuck in a war they have no control over. Humans suffered almost no consequences as a result of their war and the parsh got enslaved. I think if you’re going to say that Dalinar not being appropriately punished for the Rift is a moral failure, then you have to say the same about the humans’ conquest of Roshar.
@44: It makes a difference because in between now and Lift (for example) becoming a main character there are two more books and at least 15 years in-world. I cannot attest how I will feel towards her narrative as a main protagonist until I read it. As for now, I am satisfied with her as a side-character. Sure, she did get “awarded a spren” but since she isn’t one of the main focus, I don’t mind so much. In fact, what I mind is mostly how more than one character seems to thrive on similar themes. Lift is an urchin and a small scale thief, she isn’t uninteresting and she’s just a child. I’ll reserve judgment for the woman she’ll grow into, not for the elucubrations of a child.
And yes, maybe those are the exception, but right now, they account for more than half the Radiant forces. The exceptions are what I am reading about, but group many exceptions together and they no longer feel like exceptions, they feel like the norm. Hence, the real exceptions become far more interesting, but they aren’t the focus.
I do not include Hoid because we know nothing about Hoid, his motivations, his backstory nor his inner self. I do not consider him to be a character, just a cameo, so I’ll reserve judgment for when he is going to become a character as opposed to a plot device. This won’t happen until Dragonsteel.
Why am I supposed to care? Because four thousand years ago the Parshendis were conquered by the humans who originated from another planet? Four thousand years ago. You ask me to care about decisions made in Ancient Egypt. I don’t. It was too long ago, no one can base present-day actions on what happened so long ago. And yes, Kaladin got entangled with them thus ensuring him getting yet another very large focus within RoW where he’ll likely go through the same narrative for the fourth time in a row. I can’t say I find the prospect very… exciting. I tend to worry I’ll read the exact same narrative with minor fluctuations.
I am a character reader. I am, before anything else, reading about characters, about people, about how those people are reacting to events outside of their control. This is where I become the outlier in saying I just do not get how Heralds and Parshendis are as interesting as others are saying they are. They will be interesting if they have a good story to tell, but how the Parshendis were conquered four thousand years ago and still carry a chip over their shoulder is just not going to do it for me, as a reader. I need more and no, presented as they were, I don’t feel much for the Parshendis being angry at events predating the birth of the fore-fore-fore-fore-fore-fore-fore-fore-fore-fore-fore fathers.
Yes, humans suffered no consequences, but those humans aren’t the ones I am reading about. If they were, I’d be having a different discourse. The humans I am reading about have nothing to do with those events, so why would I want them to face a backlash? Dalinar may be guilty for the Rift, but he has nothing to do with whatever happened to the Parshendis and them wanting to kill everyone for it is just plain evil. The Rift is something taken from the present day, it is close, relatable, the humans conquering the Parshendis? It is not. Four thousand years ago. I don’t care, too long ago, no one should care.
Bottom line is I want a good story, but I am unsure the story where the Parshendis tear their shirt over decisions which were made four thousand years ago is going to be it especially if it comes hands in hands with another redemption theme.
I’m starting to really wish the comments section could involve more discussion of the chapters being read. I used to really like reading the comments section here; lately it feels like every single Oathbringer post ends up derailed into Gepeto’s Thoughts on Unearned Redemption in General and Dalinar in Particular.
Do you think you could, maybe, take a step back? Leave room for some other people to have other conversations? Your position is pretty clear at this point; reiterating it at length on every thread isn’t really necessary.
I’m not trying to attack, but it’s getting a little monotonous.
I do take some blame, as I am one who constantly argues with him and not letting it die, I apologize.
Back to the chapters at hand. I really like the new focus on the parshendi, and the subverting of expectations that they were just a one dimensional enemy to fight. The parshendi are people. They have hopes, dreams, fears. They love, live and die. I really feel Brandon is drawing on two very powerful and painful parts of our world history that are very pertinent today. The ongoing conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians as well as the near genocide of the Native Americans. There is a youtube channel “Jubilee” where they asked could Israelis and Palestinians see eye to eye. It was some really powerful stuff. I highly recommend watching it. History is very present for them. The Native Americans are virtually extinct, or well on their way to. Their language almost dead. I think it is great that Brandon under took the great weight in trying to portray such conflicts and history in a respectful and thoughtful manner. There is no black and white, just shades of gray (and maybe some red. depends on the parshendi lol)
Are Voidspren different than Spren that have been corrupted by Sja-Anat?
@46: Katherine, I understand your concern, but please note I have hardly participated within the last weeks, so this isn’t as if I was over-taking the re-read. Please also note the discussion was very sparse during those weeks, for days no one had anything to say. So please, do not accuse me of preventing others from voicing out their thoughts: you and others had ample place to voice out yours, you chose not to use it. Do not blame me if, this week, I have more to say. Do not also blame others for actually responding to me nor me for answering back.
My comments no way prevent you or others from having a discussion, but still, you’ll be very pleased to know I’ll soon be away for a while. Hence, no one will have to suffer my long posts. I tend to believe they trigger discussion, but I guess it depends on everyone’s perspective. I hope you will take the opportunity to make your own thoughts known, free of my cumbersome presence. I only hope others will participate and the thread won’t die after one day.
@47: Please. Do not apologize for responding to me nor to anyone else. None of us broke this site’s rules.
@@@@@ 45, Gepeto:
Personally, I think the children will be the most interesting, if only because we’ve only seen two radiants are children so far and we know that at least Jasnah, Kaladin and Shallan started their Nahel bonds as children. And Lift is profoundly different from all the others anyway. To each their own though.
You don’t have to care about the Parshendi. If you think that one more person thinking Dalinar a monster is more interesting then how Venli is going to try to save her culture or the parsh creating their own new one, then that’s your prerogative. The Kholinars aren’t everyone’s favorite characters.
@@@@@47, Steven Hedge – her*
@@@@@ 48, Scath
Well put. I had the exact same thought about Native Americans as well. This is where I get confused about where Brandon goes with the story though. Does he try to close this off within the last two books or do he try to drag out to the full ten. In Mistborn, he reintegrates the Terris back into “society”, but they are isolated much like Native Americans on reservations now. This a lot messier than Mistborn and I doubt he would rehash the same solution for SA. My personal guess is maybe Venli creates her own nation by the end of the fifth book? I agree with those that say it’s just her conscience, in the voice of her sister. The catalyst of a dying sibling and “taking” their spren is basically a parallel to the start of Dalinar’s journey.
@51: Shallan started her bond as he child, but Jasnah was a grown woman and Kaladin almost an adult. I know there is this quote implying Syl has been with Kaladin since childhood, but she mentions having found him while he was within Amaram’s army. I wouldn’t refer to Kaladin as a child then, but I guess he was young enough other’s perspective might differ. Jasnah, however, was in her late twenties.
Lift is different I agree and I didn’t say I found her uninteresting. I am merely holding up on my full impression of her until she becomes a more major character. I enjoyed Edgedancer, but I was slightly disconcerted with her in OB. We’ll see where she goes in the next book, but she remains, for now, a side-character. She currently isn’t the focus.
I am being very honest in saying the Parshendis narrative hasn’t strike any particular vibe in me. Maybe the characters aren’t speaking to me loud enough, maybe my personal tastes are taking me elsewhere. I do love families and family ties. We seldom read them in fantasy. I understand not everyone feels the same but it makes me relatively ambivalent about Venli and her redemption, hence my commentary this week.
I worry I won’t find this narrative engaging. I worry it will be so big no other narrative will be able to co-exist.
The humans came to Roshar long ago, but it is still very relevant for parsh who spent their whole life as slaves whose minds were destroyed by what happened in a past war. The humans may have forgotten it, but for the parsh it is not history, it is their own experience.
@37 Gepeto
Nothings wrong with your grammar; I simply thought it amusing how you phrased wanting them to face some sort of consequence besides an “inner arc where they complain about it”, I appreciated the sarcasm.
@austin
He’s consciously clowning. We see in his POV later that all his joking and slapstick is a conscious attempt to cheer up those around him.
Note that the Herdazian general is also willing to do cartoonish slapstick in these interludes, with the “tie me up so I can’t get loose” game. It may be a cultural requirement for leaders in Herdaz.
Note: I wrote this before, hit Quick Reply … and it disappeared even after a page refresh. If there is a double post, moderator, please remove the previous one and leave this.
@53: True, but present-day humans have nothing to do about it. If we are to believe the epigraphs, old-day humans also had nothing to do about it: this was the work of the Radiant Bondsmith. We aren’t dealing with regular slavery where humans are purposefully enslaving other humans to do their bindings, we are faced with a species having lost their conscience a long time ago, a time so long ago no human remembers there ever were different, who behave essentially like cattle and are, as such, used as cattle. Sah complains about how the evil humans have taken his daughter away from him, but before the Everstorm blew, he didn’t even remember he had a daughter…
The fact the Parshendis aren’t being kept in a state of conscience-less slavery “on purpose” is exactly why I can’t get on board with their narrative. The humans aren’t to blame for desperate decisions made generations before them by Radiants. In fact, purely base on present-day history, the only ones having something to blame themselves for actually are the Parshendis. They are the ones who assassinated Gavilar on the here-say of Eshonai (they didn’t even try to reason him out, to get additional information, to verify if this was really happening, they just kill him). Sure, humans are to blame for not wanting to stop the war which was essentially exterminating them, so no one is guiltless even if I take side with humanity. The Parshendis betrayed their trust. That’s a big, big, big thing. And they do not try to talk to the humans about it until Eshonai tries it with Dalinar.
So overall, I am kind of mew about it. Seems like the Parshendis have a giant chip over their shoulder and want to be taken as victims, but they are the ones trying to destroy humanity. I find it hard to feel some sympathy for them following their actions. It is hard to feel for their plight and their “oh you evil humans having enslaved us” when said-humans had no idea Parshendis were even capable of communicating with the outside world. To them, it is like their cow started talking and ragging war against them for having put it into a barn.
@54: LOL, well thanks then. It is kind of a growing thing for me and SA, how I have come to find too many of those narratives are internal as opposed to external. The irony of it all is I have been wishing for my favorite character to get a more internal narrative despite alternatively wishing for the ones who have gotten it to evolve through a more external narrative for the next book. I’d say maybe this is about balance? Do not get me wrong, despite my complaints, I still love SA (even if I worry over RoW), but do I find Brandon pushed the inner monologue a tad too far with Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar to the expense of external conflict? The answer is yes and that’s part of what worries me for RoW.
@49 RogerPavelle
That is a good question. The stormspren we have seen are red, and there are WoB saying red can be the sign of “corrupted” investiture (investiture co-opted by another shard). So maybe?
@51 Keyblazing
Thank you! I really do stress people should watch that youtube video I mentioned regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It did a great job of showing all sides and concerns. You had individuals speaking of how their siblings, friends or loved ones were killed by random attacks just days or weeks ago. You have individuals saying the horrible things that were done to their parents, and grand parents. You have individuals saying how their fathers/mothers, or grandfathers grandmothers were driven out of their homes, and their children are still struggling to eek out an existence because they were forced out. You have individuals saying how they now have had their homes there for generations, and to now have to up and move would cause the same problem by returning the land as what was done to the other people originally. You have individuals saying they can keep the land, but they must accept Israeli sovereignty. You have individuals saying they are proud to be Palestinian and why should they have to accept another’s sovereignty? Any of this sound familiar? You have the Fused that want their land back. You have the humans who have been settled with no where else to go, and see the land as theirs. Where is the line drawn? Is it only recent atrocities that have to be considered? Are they only allowed? How recent? Is it because the fused lost in the past in trying to take back their land and their justice, that they are now not allowed it? So is there a time limit on justice? On reparation? Why are the humans now more deserving of the land, than the original inhabitants? Especially considering they originally welcomed the humans with open arms. They don’t get to have recompense for that just because it happened ages ago? The parties involved are still around. The heralds and the fused. The history is the present. How does one disentangle all of that? Honestly I do not know, and I very much look forward to finding out how Brandon chooses to write it
@53 birgit
I very much agree
@Gepeto: Deserve’s got nothing to do with it.
Real Redemption isn’t something that you can get just because you deserve it, or something you can try to earn. It is something that is offered to you despite the fact that you don’t deserve it. The real question is, what are you going to do with the chance of Redemption you are offered? Dalinar says “I will do better”. Moash turned away Kaladin’s helping hand for his own selfish desire for revenge.
Roshar (and our world, too, for that matter) is an unjust world. If everybody got what they deserved, we’d all be going to Hell.
@37 Gepeto: I disagree that Venli was trying to annihilate her own people. In her view, she was returning them to a past glory and power. She did certainly end up with something quite different. I do wonder what role the Parsh would end up playing if Odium won the war. Would they be nothing but future bodies for the existing Fused?
@59 LazerWulf
I grew up in a non-religious household, and bottle return was the only true definition of “redemption” I knew for a long time, so I confess I don’t know what the official religious definition is exactly. But it does get confusing when people try t explain it. Who exactly can offer redemption? I know that plenty of people in the story do offer it– like Azure to the Wall Guard or Kaladin to Bridge Four– but how do they become endowed with that power? I am having a hard time with this idea that a person cannot redeem themself, or that repayment isn’t part of redemption. I suspect there are multiple meanings for “redemption”.
Edited to add: A literary redemption arc is also its own thing, and I don’t think needing a third party to offer a character redemption even applies? I feel like there’s a lot of confusion about secular redemption, various religious redemptions, and literary redemption arcs, and who;s talking about which one.
The idea that redemption is a pure gift not dependent on one’s own actions or character is limited (as far as I know) to certain sects (not all) of Christianity, and to people influenced by those sects.
@59: But who awards the redemption in the first place? And how can there be redemption if there is no punishment first for the actions done? To my eyes, redemption is what you get after you spent a given number of years in prison, after having paid your debt to society, it isn’t something given to you on the odd chance you will turn out a better person this time around.
My issue is why should everyone guilty of crimes be offered a chance at redemption without first having paid for them? I am also arguing whether or not seeing so many characters go through a redemption arc, without retribution, is good for the overall narrative. After all, a narrative which repeats itself for more than one character can lose its impact. In other words, if redemption becomes a guaranteed outcome for so many characters, without needing them to pay for their crimes in any visible way, then it may end up no longer being an efficient ploy.
Why would I want to read Venli redeem herself, be welcome with opened arms inside team Radiant? And if it indeed happens this way, then wouldn’t it be more interesting to read non-Radiants get angry the Nahel Bond is given to ex-criminals as opposed to people who actually deserve it by already being good people? Why do Radiants always have to be criminals who are redeeming themselves?
@60: She wanted to restore their former glory with her standing as their ultimate leader. I do not think Odium said anything with regards to his plans for the Parshendis shall they win the war: there are more Parshendis than Fused after all. His plans for humanity though are rather clear.
@61: Personally, I am usually talking about characters guilty of crimes who never face justice nor face external consequences for their actions, but are still given redemption through the Nahel Bond being offered to them on the virtue of “being a criminal breaks your mind”. After OB, I found too many characters got away with breaking the law or doing inhuman actions without facing consequences. We had Dalinar, Jasnah, Szeth, Venli, and also Adolin. This is a lot of characters who have done bad things, but yet escape consequences because of the circumstances.
As a reader, I have lost faith in the author writing a more complex narrative where actions are met with reactions. It is just not plausible to me everyone would just ignore crimes because the culprits are either Radiants or the son of a Radiant. This is beyond being privileged, this is basically saying Radiants are above the law and getting a spren erases all of their past deeds on the spot and everyone (I mean everyone in-world) just buys into it.
@Gepeto No one rewards Redemption. the powers and the memory removal aren’t a reward, since Dalinar asked for forgivness, and her response was mind wiping him, that’s not really a reward at all. external punishment is not the only way a character can be punished for their deeds. Guilt is a powerful motivator,this is why szeth had gone insane after he fought Kaladin. He had been justifying everything to himself that none of it was HIS fault. which was a lie. it broke him utterly, until Nale gave him a chance to “redeem” himself. You do not reward redemption, you seek it, you are given a chance, and you try your best to be a better person.
you also can’t say that everyone is absolved of their crimes right away. we have NO idea how people are gonna react to szeth now that things have calmed down, Dalinar’s book is still being written so we still have plenty of time to see how people react to it (no one considered the burning of the Rift a crime, it was war, they provoked him, he crushed a rebellion.) and no one knows about venli at all. Dalinar had ONE conversation with her, and her trying to make up for her crimes of nearly destroying the listeners by making the parsh know about their history is very poetic, and a step to redemptioun. redemption is a goal. not a reward.
This is definitely what Katherine meant when she talked about the threads dissolving, because now we’re sort of back to the same argument from weeks ago. Nonetheless, I’ll bite.
@Gepeto
Redemption and punishment are two different things. If someone goes to trial for killing someone’s father and is sentenced to a particular punishment, and fulfills that punishment, then they have paid the society appropriate price. That does not mean that they are redeemed in the eyes of the child that lost their father. There you have punishment, but no redemption. This is Wayne from Mistborn, Era 2, and is the example that you are looking for – a hero isn’t redeemed.
What you are actually arguing though is that you don’t think that the Radiants have paid the appropriate punishment for their crimes. Szeth, I think everyone agrees that it’s weird that there wasn’t a reaction in OB, but it’s clearly on purpose and will come. Venli’s punishment for her greed and ambition were that the Listeners were all but wiped out (to her knowledge). What she did isn’t a crime though. We don’t know what kind of journey she will take, but based on hearing her sister’s voice in this chapter, I think it’s clearly it’s going to be “wrestling with her conscience / who she is / her people” kind of journey; we’ll see. She’s not redeeming herself to the Radiants or humans though. They don’t even know her or her people; their opinion doesn’t matter at all. She would only be doing what is right for her people. (That’s why she’s going to be a particularly fascinating character.) As for Jasnah, why do we care about potential rapists and murderers? Being “goaded” into doing something doesn’t mean that you didn’t actually do it. It’s not like they were defending little children or their honor; they were looking for victims. You can’t argue both that Jasnah was immoral here and then dismiss Sah as “he got what’s coming to him”. It’s not like Sah had an actual choice, but to fight. As for Adolin, maybe Ialai does seek revenge, but as a reader, I’m not going to think about how she deserves justice when we already saw how Sadeas lived. If she gets her revenge, fine, but it’s unlikely and good luck to her if she thinks she can kill the Kholins after her army joined Odium’s and failed.
Dalinar is the one that you seem to have the most problems with. My take is this – you feel that Dalinar was not appropriately punished for being a murderer and a bad father/husband and that his family still revers him. My answer to that is – to be blunt – is that that no one that Dalinar really cares about knows the whole truth – which they will learn in RoW – and that no one cares about the Rift because there are presumably no survivors and they are fighting a war currently. The Rift is irrelevant to everyone, but the Kholins and the Radiants who Dalinar leads. That is unfortunate for them, but it’s not in the present time, so it doesn’t matter. This is also exactly the argument that you keep using about the Parshendi, except that the actual consequences of the humans’ decision to expand out resulted in a war that they are still currently fighting. Sanderson does a very complex narrative; you just don’t like it presumably because you don’t really empathize with the parsh and you it doesn’t involve your favorite characters. I think then that it is a little dramatic to say that you lost faith in his writing.
@65: I personally prefer re-beating the same horse to an inactive thread no one sees fit to visit pass the initial posting. As long as there will be people willing to have a discussion, I do not see why we shouldn’t be having it. Besides, it isn’t as if it prevented others from having other discussions nor making their thoughts known.
I am arguing two different things.
First, I am arguing too many of the new main Radiant viewpoints seem to have come through a similar narrative of debatable past deeds combined with a timely redemption via the Nahel Bond. I consider Dalinar, Szeth and now Venli have been written on this mold and if I am willing to bite down the dust when it comes to Dalinar, if I am willing to accept Szeth may be a special case, I am wondering as to why Venli needs to follow the same trajectory. Hence, this week’s chapter, featuring Venli, made me think as to whether or not I personally find it desirable so much of the next book’s focus shall feature another redemption story.
Secondly, those thoughts brought back the old discussion we had as to whether or not Radiants guilty of pass crimes have paid sufficient punishment for all readers to accept they have the right to redeem themselves. Basically, I am not against redemption, I like a good redemption story as much as the next reader, but I am finding the ones Brandon is proposing lack one dimension. They lack the external dimension other in-world characters are disbelieving and/or not wanting this redemption to happen unless a given price is paid.
On the matter of Jasnah, no I do not think what she did was immoral nor wrong but I am pretty sure it was illegal. This is where I am drawing the line, a good necessary action may be against the law and, even if done for the right reason, still deserves punishment if we are to believe laws matter. Of course, Jasnah will obviously never have to wriggle through the law to explain what she did nor am I suggesting she does but she comes across as yet another character who stands above it. Adolin is, IMHO, far greater offender in this regard.
I am also no dismissing Sah at all, but I am making the personal statement I find his anger towards the Alethi void since prior to the Everstorm, he was unable to form coherent thoughts. This wasn’t right nor fair, but present-day Alethis are not to blame for this. It bothers me when they are or when Sah reduces the argument towards them being “evil slave-owner” and them being the “rightful victims” when the reality is far more complex.
Adolin will likely never hear from Ialai again nor will he ever face consequences for murdering a Highprince, thinking he will is misunderstanding the turns Brandon took with his narrative. As a reader, I, however, do not have to appreciate this turn. I may be thinking about having high ranked characters walk out of consequences in a repetitive manner has stopped being interesting when Adolin suffered no consequences. I may be thinking he was the one character too many.
As for Dalinar, well, you summarized it brilliantly. I have nothing more to add except I will say I have not lost faith in Brandon as a writer in a general manner (I might have used too dramatic sentencing, I tend to be a dramatic individual), I have lost faith in the narrative we are reading will ever explore more external consequences to actions. I will not lie in saying I have been wanting to read more of those. I, however, no longer believe I will, not because Brandon is a bad writer, more because he is a good writer who’s focus will simply not be the arcs I care the most about.
Also, I don’t hate the current narrative, I worry whether or not I will like RoW because, yes, I do not sympathize with the Parshendis much and the characters I sympathize more with aren’t scheduled to have much page time. I am far more interested in reading about Shallan, Adolin, Dalinar, Jasnah, and Renarin than I am about Venli, but other readers may entirely disagree. That’s just my personal preference. So yes, when the next book is said to put all of its eggs inside a basket I am lukewarm about, I worry whether I will like or feel it is another Feast for Crows.
I don’t know if this is speaking about redemption, or if it even ties to the Cosmere in general, but if feels appropriate to add to the discussion that’s been going on.
The Kholins don’t get to break the laws without punishment because they are Radiants, they can’t break the law because they are the law (that is why it doesn’t matter that Adolin is no Radiant, he too belongs to the ruling family). There is no one who can punish the rulers. The Alethi don’t think what Dalinar did in the past is wrong, they think his present change that we think makes him better is wrong. Other nations do react negatively to him because of his past, we just don’t see as much of their perspective because the story focuses on Alethi. His family are Alethi, too, they don’t necessarily see his actions the way we do even when they do learn the truth. Adolin might excuse Evi’s death as a tragic accident while Dalinar can’t forgive himself.
@Gepeto: “First, I am arguing too many of the new main Radiant viewpoints seem to have come through a similar narrative of debatable past deeds combined with a timely redemption via the Nahel Bond.”
As I have argued (to echo your phrasing) in the past, the entire Stormlight Archive is about repetition, or to use a musical expression, variations on a theme.
@68: Typically, stories featuring a ruling family escaping consequences for their actions due to being too high ranked would feature lower born characters determine to take them down. In another series, the Kholins would end up seeing their power erode and Adolin murdering a Highprince would have been the first step towards it. It is however not happening nor will it ever happen, which leaves us with a narrative where the privilege get more privilege (after all, the Kholins are all Radiants except Adolin) and become virtually untouchable.
Having for premise a story where the Kholins stand above the law, where no one can touch them, where no action they do can trigger consequences definitely takes away from the drama, the angst and the anticipation. What is there left to anticipate? We know nothing bad will happen to the Kholins except for Elhokar. Adolin was the vessel through which drama could have happened, but he will be left untouched. Of course, he will excuse Evi’s death as a tragic accident because this is the one reaction that fits with how the narrative has evolved lately.
@69: The Stormlight Archive is a large scope series comprised of many books. Why the same theme has to be reused with so many of its main protagonists is something I do not understand well. Wouldn’t it preferable if the thematic changed from one character to the next?
@Gepeto
Please don’t take this personally, but the comments of the entire re-read (which I have been following only sporadically for this very reason) read very much like “Gepeto beats the horse again”. It smothers any other sort of discussion, see for example the talk about Lopen that was just drowned out by your longer posts. Perhaps you could chose a single chapter and have your discussion there so that people at least have a chance to talk about something that’s not your perception of the Kholins?
You keep saying that, but you have nothing to back it up. Please link me which thread you decide to have the discussion on and provide a WOB that states this, I’ll subscribe to keep up-to-date.
I had some things t say about the interlude (Timbre certainly keeps up the trend of adorableness of radiant spren in their “child-like” phase), but I am kind of miffed by posters declaring that talking about redemption arcs is taboo in a chapter about Venli. Its a major theme of the books, yet it is evident that many people have varying ideas on what a redemption arc means to them, so it seems kind of stupid to not even be able to discuss it. I would be interested to hear more “this is how I think redemption arcs should work and this is what it means to me”, rather than “you don’t know what you are talking about so shut up” posts.
They aren’t miffed about talking about redemption. The issue is that this is literally the same exact discussion that took place at length on a prior chapters. More than once. No one is going to change anyone else’s mind. Everyone said their opinions. Repeating it adds nothing. Can we reach a point where we respect each others opinion and move on?
@71: Please, how else am I supposed to take those rebuffs except in a personal manner? I will admit you and Katherine have been polite, this isn’t the issue, but don’t you think it is a tad exaggerated to accuse me of over-taking the re-read with talks on the Kholins when I was inactive for many weeks? While I also entertain various other topics on others such as Kaladin, leadership, Moash, Elhokar, and Amaram? This happens to be a Dalinar-themed book which implies topics such as his character, his family and redemption are bound to be recurrent. And this week, I was referring to Venli’s redemption, not Dalinar’s though the topic diverged and moved onto it.
I try to make my comments match the chapter at hand and, this week, with a Venli chapter, I thought it was the right tribune to voice out my thoughts on how I feel towards her upcoming redemption. I understand not all want to have this discussion just as I understand some might be flustered if their own topics of discussion aren’t picked up by others. I am however not to blame for which topics generate discussions and which ones do not. If no one had picked on the Lopen discussion, then this isn’t my personal fault. Maybe it was posted on the wrong week, maybe it wasn’t phrased in ways that caught the interest of other posters, it happens to everyone. It happens to me: not every post I made turns out into a discussion.
@72: I thought it was an appropriate topic this week, but it appears I was wrong since I may be beating too much on a dead horse. Or it may merely be others want to have the discussion, just not with me interfering. Whichever. I am not keen on continuing if it means more “please shut up” posts, no matter how politely they are being phrased.
To jump into the discussion it does seem a lot of this is centering around personal definitions of redemption, grace, etc.
For example, as somebody mentioned Christianity, grace is something we do not deserve, but redemption is still something we have to actively strive for ourselves by accepting it (I’m Catholic so I realize there are other ideas here about this), atoning if needed, and at least striving to lead a better life. It’s also not a ‘once saved, always saved’ thing, but a constant journey. Think Javert vs Jean Valjean and their responses to mercy…only one of them is actually ‘redeemed’.
And interestingly I never saw Radiancy as any kind of moral barometer. Not to mention that every spren is different, so if a spren choose a person to bond, it may not necessarily be because that person is an upstanding gal/guy, or any type of reward.
As for the interludes –
-I completely forgot about Sheler. Yikes!
-I think Venli’s turning point is in fact when she realizes she only wanted power. What she will do with that self knowledge is what will matter going forward.
So I just had a thought. Renarin potentially has a radiant surge of progression, and a voidbringer surge of illumination. I wonder how Venli’s bond to the voidspren may affect her powers as a radiant. Could she use voidlight in addition to stormlight? Could she only use voidlight? Could she gain some form of compounding in her powers if she holds stormlight and voidlight? Could she use willshaper surges for much longer than radiants, but not as powerful, like when we see the difference between the gravitation fused and kaladin?
@76, Scath:
I would think compounding? If Voidlight and stormlight were really that incompatible, would Timbre be able to hide her presence? I’m thinking maybe the combination is essentially what Feruchemy was in Mistborn. We still really don’t know much about a lot of Roshar’s Investiture – stormlight, voidlight, how the Honorblades work or even the Old Magic.
@77 Keyblazing
Lol, right after I posted, I remembered Venli drawing in stormlight so we do know she can at least do that. I think it would be interesting if she could draw in voidlight as well, and see that interact with her powers. I agree there is still a whole lot we don’t know yet. Maybe she could do constant smaller expressions of the power with voidlight like the fused, but then do sudden strong bursts via stormlight like the radiants. I agree that it ends up sounding like feruchemy in that regard. Maybe she could do quick little teleport hops with voidlight all over the battlefield, but when she teleports to the other end of the continent she uses stormlight. Maybe with cohesion she could alter her own carapace (potentially like that fused) with voidlight, and with stormlight make greater alterations to the ground around her, like the radiant did in the vision. I hope this is the case cause it could result in some really interesting interactions like we see with Wax and Wayne in Mistborn.
Good questions @76. I don’t think she has access to voidlight, as that seems to be restricted to the Fused. Forms of power don’t necessarily grant surges, I don’t think. Stormform, for instance, had powers before voidlight was accessable through the Everstorm. I’m personally, still a bit confused between forms of power listed in the Listeners Song of Listing, etc. as to which are made by bonding voidspren and which are made by being a Fusded. But, my thoughts so far are that there are various Fused forms – flying, carapace that can be shaped, edgedancer-like, illusion (like the one in the vault) – and those use voidlight but seem to be Fused parsh. Then, the other forms of power like stormform and envoy form have access to new rhythms and powers, but aren’t run on voidlight that I have seen. So… I think she will have to use Stormlight for her powers, but I could definitely see the powers being warped or shifted somehow in they do, like Renarin’s.
Disagreement is not always a “rebuff”.
@79 whitespine
Hmmm, I think you are right. It does look like the use of the surges by the fused seems more dependent on a reborn fused rather than bonding a voidspren. Then again, the question becomes how did the original fused get the powers to begin with. This makes me wonder what kind of combinations or as you said warping/shifting could come of the regal (if I recall correctly that is what Venli’s level of forms are called?) forms coupled with different radiant orders. For instance what would a stormform windrunner knight radiant be like? This also makes me wonder, in order to bond a radiant spren, does a parshendi first have to bond a voidspren? Or could any of them do so having bonded any non-sapient spren, and it was just the radiant spren hadn’t given them a chance in the past?
Another thought! What if Venli does eventually join the Kholins, and her and Renarin work together in trying to understand their unique powers?
@Gepeto i always enjoy your comments and would be sad if theyre gone. I’m not sure how anyone can think that less discussion would make the comment section a better place. That’s the whole point of this.
@form of power + stormlight. That is an interesting one, we know that, at least timbre, is scared of the voidspren. So my instinct is that to have a full nahel bond the parsh would need to give up the form of power as they are largely incompatible. May differ for different orders tho!
I apologize to everyone for not being here to moderate this thread; it seems to have taken some… interesting turns. If I’d been here, I would have requested that y’all hold your comments about Dalinar’s redemption arc at least until next week; we’ll start to get into it with his first post-Rift flashback. I’m a little disappointed that now, whatever we say will be viewed as rehashing old hash. :(
Also: as long as people are reasonable and don’t attack the individual, we’re not putting limits on how much one person can say, nor on the opinions that they espouse. If you don’t like it, don’t engage it. That said, I’ve recently learned that a great deal of discussion, even of this reread, takes place on other fora – and that’s okay. We need not insert controversy just for the sake of creating comments.
Keyblazing @19:
I see a lot similarities in Venli’s and Dalinar’s arcs, so that it feels repetitive to me. Which is another reason why I would have preferred Eshonai. The differences are mostly due to Dalinar having been a joyful berserker and conqueror, while Venli was a Mad Scientist ™.
I.e.:
Both Dalinar and Venli are a younger sibling who loved and admired, but also somewhat resented and envied an illustrous older sibling.
Both feel responsible for that sibling’s death, though Eshonai’s death also parallels Evi’s, because Venli actually indirectly caused it, while Dalinar just wasn’t there for his brother, but did have an inadvertent hand in his wife’s demise.
Both feel that the wrong sibling died.
Both committed massacres that have gotten out of hand and killed their loved one. Anger was the driving motivation in both cases, though Venli was driven by ambition as well.
Both are responsible for the death of a romantic partner – and it were the deaths of a sibling and a romantic partner that ultimately start them on the way of change. Yes, Venli was somewhat less dramatically affected both by Eshonai’s and Demid’s demise, but they clearly provided the seed for her eventual change nevertheless.
Both ultimately bonded the spren that their older sibling began bonding with before them (!).
Both were selected by Odium as his instruments and rated personal interaction with him.
Both culminate in taking responsibility for their actions and rejecting Odium in OB, again Venli in a much more subdued manner.
One can also speculate that Venli being responsible for the stormform and the Everstorm is going to hamper her future efforts in the same way as Dalinar’s bloody conquering past did his.
So, yea, the similarities are striking and, IMHO, supreflous.
Personally, I count the fact that Eshonai wouldn’t have needed to be “redeemed” in the same manner as a point in her favor. She could have had a new and fresh story rather than a rehash of Dalinar’s.
Also, I somewhat agree with Gepeto that having Dalinar, Venli and Szeth among the founding 10 new Radiants is an overkill and almost creates an impression that being a mass murderer and a war criminal is very helpful in achieving Radiance. While I don’t see the Nahel bond as a “redemption”, nor do I think that it is something that’s awarded on “merit”, neither am I going to pretend, like the superhero comics like to do, that having superpowers isn’t very desireable. People can be terribly broken without being criminals, in fact most are, so there is no reason to overrepresent this origin among the KR. Of course, brokenness isn’t even a requirement per WoB, just one way of opening oneself to spren.
AndrewHB @24:
I really, really hope that Gaz doesn’t become a Radiant! Among other things, we already have a surfeit of soldier/ex-soldier dudes on the path and I’d like to see people of different backgrounds having a crack at it too.
The discussions about who among the minor characters might become a future Radiant or gain more importance also crystallized the realisation for me that while Sanderson improved greatly from the first Mistborn series where the inclusion of important main and secondary female characters is concerned, his memorable bit characters or minor characters with development potential still remain overwhelmingly male. Like, for instance, everyone among the 10 flashback characters except for Eshonai, if they have a sibling, it’s a brother or several of them. Vast majority of both Kaladin’s and Shallan’s followers and actual or prospective squires are male (ex)soldiers, etc.
And yes, there is a war going on, so it follows that soldiers would be over-represented, however I also feel that, like many fantasy authors Sanderson tends to leave out such other ubiquitous people as servants as a source of bit characters with personality and potential to become more. IRL even lower middle-class people had servants or some other kind of domestic help until well into 20-ieth century. And cleaning ladies, nannies, etc. are still a thing.
In particular, at the very least both Jasnah and Navani should have had ladies maids. Keeping clothes in pristine condition, packing and unpacking them, etc., was quite labor-intensive before the advent of modern utilities. Just watch some “Downton Abbey”. So, how come that Jasnah always looked so fabulous even when travelling? Was she wasting her own time on all the necessary chores? She could have outsourced, of course, but it would have provided a very easy access to her and her belongings for spies and assassins. If anybody ever needed a Loyal Maid ™, to look after her wardrobe, fetch her meals (and make sure that they weren’t poisoned), guard her belongings, etc., it was Jasnah. Yes, it would have made Shallan’s life in WoK harder, but it would have been so much more plausible! Not to mention that for the series that rails against the social stratification, we have really seen very little of dark-eyed Vorin women and their perspective on things.
Ahem. End of digression. Anyway, that’s why I would much prefer if Ishnah becomes the next Lightweaver squire/Radiant, rather than Gaz, and gets fleshed out a bit in the process.
Gepeto @27:
I don’t see Eshonai as a “dutiful warrior” – she tried to play the part, but it was not her nature and she hated it. That was all pretty much finished with the Everstorm and the advent of the Fused anyway. I am also very interested in Listeners/Singers, their history, their society, etc., so for me the main fear is that Sanderson would fail to make them different enough from humans. But then, I always liked aliens/demihumans in speculative fiction and games and actually prefer them to boring old us.
Concerning the lack of consequences, for me the non-reaction to Szeth takes the cake in OB. I can only hope that RoW somehow makes it less contrived, as he should be universally hated and feared and become a huge PR liability to Dalinar. Also, it was really weird how Shallan and Navani, both described as devote Vorins, didn’t respond in any way to the news that Amighty was dead, even though they seemed to trust Dalinar on the matter. Surely their worldviews should have been shattered, like we saw gradually happening to Kadash?! Nope. Not going to repeat myself about lacking reactions to deaths, but also that.
P.S. Speaking of Sheler, he is completely awful, of course, but the messenger boys getting transferred to combat squads during the battle, could also have had to do with the Skybreaker plot to get rid of Tien. The wording of the Ghostblood letter to Shallan suggets that not only were they aware of him being a budding Radiant, but that they had a hand in eliminating him.
@Gepeto: I guess what it comes down to is the fact that your worldview affects what kind of stories you like. You’ve got to remember, Brandon Sanderson is Mormon, and while his works may not be as allegorical as Tolkien or Lewis (esp. Lewis), that worldview definitely influences his writing.
Grace and Mercy are big themes within Christianity, and so it’s no surprise that these themes show up in Brandon’s books. It’s a bit of an oversimplification, but Grace is getting a reward you know you don’t deserve, and Mercy is not facing a punishment you know you DO deserve. Both of these concepts can be applied to Dalinar.
ETA:
@84: It’s interesting that you’re finding so much in common between Dalinar and Venli, because the reason Brandon killed off Eshonai is because he found her to be too similar to other characters.
Relevant WOB:
Questioner
Were you intending to kill Eshonai off from the beginning of the series, or is that a decision you made later on?
Brandon Sanderson
That was a decision I made later in the outlining process. It was not begun that way, but it became obvious I needed to do it fairly early on. Why?
Questioner
I was just wondering, because as I was reading Way of Kings, a lot of people thought she was going to be a continuing character, maybe even be one of the good guys later on.
Brandon Sanderson
Right. The decision I came to, and it was probably– Trying to remember exactly when it was. When I came to the decision that Venli was more interesting as a perspective, viewpoint character than her sister was, because we already had characters in the series whose attribute was paragon of their– This kind of paragon soldier who’s trying to do the right thing is well covered in The Stormlight Archive. She was intended originally, but pretty early in the revision process, I decided it needed to go the other direction, ’cause Venli just worked way better as a viewpoint character.
Questioner
Is Eshonai still getting a flashback book?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes, she’s still getting a flashback book. I didn’t change any of that. In fact, before I even began the series, I knew there were some characters who would not make it to their flashback book, and I wanted to make sure that I made clear that that could happen.
Questioner
You said that before, I was like, I want to hear it.
Brandon Sanderson
Eshonai was intended to continue through, but I changed that pretty quickly, when I realized– like I said.
@75 Lisamarie
Thanks, that version of redemption makes more sense to me than my bottle return version (which is waaaay too simplistic for a redemption arc model, in my opinion). In addition to us readers all having different versions of what redemption means, the author will have his own, and the author’s individual characters can even have their own definitions which won’t necessarily be the same as the author’s, but could explore some facet of redemption that the author finds interesting. I remembered another mention of the word “redemption” besides that of Azure about joining the Wall Guard– Rock uses it in his chapter, about the potential to become radiant, or at least a squire. Rock is a very devote guy who worships spren, though, so his version of redemption reflects that. I agree with you that spren don’t choose people to reward them. The spren have their own personalities and agendas, and that weighs heavily into who they pick, as I see it.
Timbre strikes me as an explorer, much like Eshonai. She is curious, into everything, and Venli has to talk her out of just flying out the window and into danger. Timbre isn’t afraid to try something new, like bonding a Listener instead of a human. I am looking forward to seeing Timbre grow.
@84 Isilel
You have put into words many of the things that bother me about these three redemption arcs, including the repetitiveness of Venli’s story. I liked Eshonai’s POV, and saw her as an explorer at heart and only a soldier by necessity. At least I have her flashbacks to look forward to, and maybe her wonder and joy at exploring the new will carry on with Timbre.
@84 The only nitpick I have about the comparison is that I’m pretty sure Venli is actually the older sibling who was jealous that the younger one had risen to greater importance than she. I actually see a lot of similarities with Gavilar and Venli.
Late thought, but what are the chances that Unity is another shard
edit: I mean think of it. Not only is the concept mentioned in Elantris, but one of the epigraphs in Mistborn makes reference to the things that can happen when the world unifies
edit:
Epigraph from chapter 10:
It amazes me how many nations have united behind our purpose. There are still dissenters, of course – and some kingdoms, regrettably, have fallen to wars that I could not stop.
Still, this general unity is glorious, even humbling, to contemplate. I wish that the nations of mankind hadn’t required such a dire threat to make them see the value of peace and cooperation.
And chapter 12:
What would it be like if every nation – from the isles in the South to the Terris hills in the North – were united under a single government? What wonders could be achieved, what progress could be made, if mankind were to permanently set aside its squabblings and join together?
It is too much, I suppose, to even hope for. A single, unified empire of man? It could never happen.
edit:
I point this out because I wonder what the implications of a Unity shard would have forthe end game of Oathbringer.
@88 BenW
There have been a whole host of theories regarding Unity. Anything from it is its own Shard, to Dalinar bringing together Honor would be reinterpreted as Unity, to Dalinar uniting Odium, Honor, and Cultivation would be Unity. So you are definitely among a large portion theorizing in that direction :)
edit: oh yeah and the theory that unity will be dalinar uniting all the shards in the cosmere. So you may be onto something!
whitespine @87: The conversation Eshonai has with her mother in WoR seems to imply that Venli is the older sibling, but I don’t know if it’s confirmed elsewhere. Anyone?
Lazerwulf @85:
Thanks for the WoB, but that’s not how Eshonai read to me at all. She was thrust into position of military command, but it was against her nature, she hated it and wasn’t all that good at it either. It is like saying that somebody who fought in WW2 and was decent at it, but not career military was a “paragon soldier”. If Eshonai had been that, Parshendi wouldn’t have been losing so badly, given that they were facing an enemy that was only nominally unified.
Also, the whole “capture Dalinar in order to treat with him” plan was kinda stupid and cost a lot of Listeners their lives. She could have easily began by capturing wounded Alethi soldiers and officers, learning what she could from them and using them as messengers if she wanted to open dialog.
Anyway, after thinking about it a bit, what also greatly contributes to Venli’s arc feeling repetitive and rehashing of Dalinar’s is that the very thing that distinguished her as a character – namely her being a Mad Scientist ™ didn’t play any role in her OB plot. In fact, it is even unclear how much, if anything, of her previous research she produced herself and how much was just drip-fed to her by Ulim. Certainly, her PR tour among the parsh is something for which Eshonai, who was a gifted public speaker, was even more suited. There was zero reason for Eshonai to remain a soldier after the Everstorm! And interaction with Venli “in the present”, with Eshonai desperately trying to escape her mind-control, while Venli remained more or less herself, but influenced by her voidspren and still drunk on the Fused cool-aid could have been quite interesting and fresh.
Oh, well. Honestly, I disagree with nearly all changes from his initial outlines that Sanderson made to character fates in WoR – Eshonai, of course, but also letting Szeth live which felt very contrived at the time and continues to be so and killing Sadeas while sparing Amaram for OB – just to make him act exactly like Torol would have without including the necessary look at the process of his descent.
BenW @88:
Don’t forget Vasher’s and Shashara’s Unification attempts on Nalthis in his Kalad the Destroyer days.
Bad_platypus @90:
I thought so too.
I have not been able to find anywhere where it is explicitly stated except perhaps one scene. First their mother thinks Eshonai is Venli, and speaks to “Venli” as a child and of having to prepare for Eshonai’s day of first transformation. Their mother continues by saying how “Venli” is still diligent and a good girl for staying at home and helping, unlike her sister “Eshonai” that is always running off. Their mother comments to keep working so “Venli” will not be like her sister “Eshonai” . Then Eshonai asks their mother about an old story, and that is when their mother recognizes and speaks to Eshonai as Eshonai. Their mother refers to Eshonai as the story being too mature for a child such as her, especially considering it is before her day of first transformation. Their mother still refers to Eshonai as Eshonai when mentioned cleaning out her things.
So what can be gleaned from that info?
1. Both Eshonai and Venli are seen as children at that time
2. Eshonai was not old enough for a mature story, and was just shy of her first transformation day
3. Venli was potentially older to be old enough to help prepare for Eshonai’s first transformation day. Potentially a younger sibling could still help (as far as we know), but if we are to believe Eshonai is too young for a mature story, then a younger sibling would be even younger and to me would not be capable of potential responsibility in preparing a transformation day.
So it is not explicitly stated, and the reasoning is rather loose but it appears to me that Venli is the older sibling. To me she would need to be older, rather than younger, to be entrusted with helping in the preparations for Eshonai’s first transformation day, especially when it is implied Eshonai would have been really young at the time. But that’s the best I got.
@@@@@ 90 and 92, I think Venli’s first interlude in OB solidifies that she was older… I’ll look it up later today.
@@@@@91 Yeah, those changes (or not having made the changes) bring up interesting possibilities.
@@@@@75 @@@@@ 86 agreed I mean, you can’t say that the Skybreakers are good people and are rewarded powers since they look to find old crimes, and than murder people, just because they have powers. The spren don’t care if someone feels redeemed, or even if they have a innocent past. they care if they personifiy their beliefs. Honor, Justice, and so on and so forth
@Isilel:
The Stormlight Archive is all about siblings. Sibling relationships are everywhere. Yes, Eshonai and Venli. Yes, Dalinar and Gavilar, but also:
-Kaladin and Tien (and then Oroden)
-Jasnah and Elhokar
-Shallan and her brothers
-Adolin and Renarin
-Evi and Toh.
It’s almost weird to have characters who don’t have important sibling relationships (e. g. Taravangian, Lift).
Jasnah’s lady’s maid was basically Shallan, for a while.
Can you explain how “the Ghostblood letter” (do you mean Mraize’s at the end) suggests anything about Tien?
One of the reasons why I think that Eshonai was the elder is that Venli remembers her sister lecturing her about the Forms and how to hold on to your essential identity when assuming different ones. Sadly ironic, that.
Given what is involved in the transformations when done in traditional Listener style – i.e. walking out into a highstorm with just a shield for protection, I also don’t think that the First Transformation is something that a young child would undergo, rather than a rite of passage that took place in adolescence, possibly signifying the coming of age.
Carl @95:
I love the prominence of sibling and family relationships in SA, even though realistically most of the characters should have had bigger families and cousins and such. I’d wish for more sisters and in-laws to be present, too. This doesn’t mean that sibling relationships have to be so repetitive – for instance, while there are commonalities in Kaladin -Tien and Adolin – Renarin dynamics, they are not nearly as similar as Dalinar’s and Venli’s with their respective sibling and therefore work very well.
Concerning Jasnah – Ehlokar, unfortunately we were shown almost nothing about their relationship – he didn’t even show any reaction to the news of her murder(!), which was a missed opportunity, IMHO. For this reason I really wanted to have a short chapter from the king’s PoV, ideally him witnessing his sister’s “return from death”. I am sure we’ll see more in Jasnah flashback book… in 2 decades iRL or so.
Nor do we know anything about Evi and Toh.
Regarding Tien:
There is a WoB that this refers to Tien. It is clear that the Skybreakers were aware of him and IMHO the wording of the above quote suggests that they had a hand in “elimination”. The WoB in question:
@93 whitespine
I checked, and no luck. Though I do agree with you, I think Venli is the older sibling
@95 Carl
True, Shallan was Jasnah’s ward, with among her responsibilities helping with research, combing Jasnah’s hair, maintaining their notes, and etc. Also when Shallan was attempting to steal the soulcaster, a maid did enter the room, so at least at Kharbranth, both Shallan and Jasnah did have maids. It is also mentioned that Jasnah had wards prior.
@96 Isilel
Could you provide any further identifying words for the scene, or which book, or even better the page for the scene you are referring to regarding Venli and Eshonai’s age? I tried to pull it up and I haven’t had any luck yet.
@53
Parallels in our world between various racial, ethnic, and religious groups who still feel the effects of past conflicts, while the ‘other side(s)’ have ‘moved on.’
Sorry for taking so long to comment on this but I only JUST got the detail in my head right. Does the offer of “the hog” remind anyone else of the story Sigzil tells Kaladin back in The Way Of Kings Of Marabethia? About how someone can choose either a quick execution or to be dangled over a seaside cliff for a week as bait for a predator and that if they survive they can go free. Almost no one survives long enough to go free, but they almost all take the hanging as bait because of the false hope.
This reminds me that story